In the comments to my last blog post, Wynele brought up a number of very good points about the RP and romance options in Sanctum 1 — some of which raise questions that I’d like to get feedback from players on. WARNING: SPOILERS for both Sanctum modules follow.
Wynele wrote: “The PC passiveness. I’d like to see the PC cave a little less to Robin. I know for story reasons, the two must get along-but even the best of friends want to choke each other out from time to time…
“Some instances I recall off hand. The soul drinker… If you take the violent option (which I though was amusing and in lines with what a rowdy BFF would say) Robin gets angry to put it lightly… The “High handed bitch” remark should probably earn Robin an equally insulting retort. (or a good thwap to the back of the head considering he’s being foolish)”
I was surprised by this comment at first, and only partly because I disagree that Robin is being foolish in that scene. (Neither of you know what getting the venom in your mouth will do to you, and Robin wants a practical reason to agree to your taking that risk.) But I do think there is something to Wynele’s general point here: that the romances are generally written to encourage kindness rather than confrontation. Given the sometimes frustrating complexity of Robin’s romance in particular, that may not always be appropriate. And Wynele’s observation has already given me some ideas about how to address that, including how to improve that conversation in particular. Thanks!
However, after thinking about it, I realized that there’s probably more going on here, something that’s related to the difference between the male and female versions of the module. Sanctum 1 was originally written with Robin as a female character only. When I developed the alternative version last year, I pretty much copied the dialogue over verbatim, except for things like pronoun changes and a few edits for lines that obviously didn’t make sense when spoken to or by a male Robin. I was very interested in feedback from players on whether some of male Robin’s dialogue might not have worked well without some more extensive re-writing, but until now I haven’t seen or received anything to indicate that this was needed.
Now I’m not so sure. To see why, try putting the line that Wynele mentioned back in its original context: as a threat of violence spoken by a male PC to a female Robin who has just been fatally poisoned. Perhaps it’s more my own sense of chivalry than anything else, but I felt that warranted a harsh response — which was later inherited by the male Robin version of the module. Now I’m wondering if I shouldn’t have just re-written this exchange differently for a male Robin. I took more cognizance of issues like this when I wrote Sanctum 2, since the dialogue there was developed with the fact that it had to work for both Robins already in mind. (For example, that’s why Prince Robin only yells at and humiliates the female courtier who kisses him without asking, while Princess Robin actually breaks the arm of the male courtier who does this.)
So now I’m thinking that a more extensive editing and re-writing pass through the Sanctum 1 dialogue may be warranted, to take more subtle nuances of this kind into account. And in line with this, I wanted to pose two questions. First, do players agree that this may be needed? And second, does anyone have suggestions about other exchanges to revisit?
Thanks in advance for any feedback —
Andarian
****SPOILERS BELOW*****
First of all, the two genders need different dialogs. A man doesn’t treat a lady the way a lady can get away with treating a man.
Second, I agree with Wynele. She’s right. The PC is pretty much a weakling dealing with Robin. He/She needs to grow a backbone.
The whole module is about Robin, not the PC. The PC exists to help tell Robin’s story. The module is a lot of fun. But Robin is not very pleasant to be around. She’s the high handed one, not the PC.
I always play a male PC, so I didn’t about the male Robin who yelled at the girl for kissing him, and publicly humiliated her. Any SOB who would do something like that needs to have his arrogant butt dragged outside and stomped into the dirt by the nearest half dozen men, pronto. I don’t care if he is a freakin’ prince. That doesn’t give him, or any other man, the right to treat a lady that way. There are other ways to put her in her place and make her understand that her advances are not welcome without making a public scene and humiliating her.
And cursing out a friend who is trying to save your life is nothing but petulant childishness. The female version of Robin started to throw a fit about having the soul drinker poison sucked out, and my PC threatened to spank her bottom. She blew her stack like a crazy woman!
I’m only sorry that I couldn’t actually do it. She’s obviously twenty years overdue for a paddling. If ever there was a spoiled rotten rich bitch, it’s Robin Killraven.
Now, some people are going to tell me that I’m a hypocrite. I just got done ranting about male Robin humiliating some girl for kissing him. And here I am wanting to spank female Robin. But the difference is that female Robin is acting like a fool, in a life or death situation, for no good reason. Shouting at someone to vent your rage is not the same as using whatever means are necessary, to force a beloved friend to see reason so that you can save their life.
You wrote in your blog post that “the romances are generally written to encourage kindness rather than confrontation”.
That won’t always work. Sometimes even the most loving couple argues. Like the man said, if two people never argue, only one of them is thinking. If the PC never stands up to Robin, then the PC is nothing but Robin’s boy-toy (or girl-toy, whichever).
The maps are great. The monsters are great. The plot is great, mostly. But Robin needs smacked. Real bad.
“So now I’m thinking that a more extensive editing and re-writing pass through the Sanctum 1 dialogue may be warranted, to take more subtle nuances of this kind into account…”
I’m afraid you may be right, as I sit here and think back on it. Through the first chapter, it seems my female PC was always looking out for and comforting Robin and never the other way around. Perhaps this makes sense for the female Robin version, but when you turn that around a male Robin should then be more concerned for the female PC. She might appreciate that, or try to show a brave face and say she’s fine, or even be annoyed that he’s considering her to be weak, frail, or incapable – but friends are supposed to look out for each other, and he should at least try.
As to the passiveness, I agree that the PC could use a bit more “backbone.” Even the best of friends will bicker or quarrel on occasion, but that doesn’t mean they don’t kiss and make up afterwards. It’s only natural that the PC and Robin would have a difference in opinion somewhere along the way — especially if stress runs high, as it would be during the escape and exploration through the ruins.
After all, Robin might be used to these things, but the PC? She’s probably wise and capable, but that would be the second time her life has completely turned upside down inside of a day. It offers a good excuse for the PC to snap at Robin at some point, whether it’s truly deserved or not. Would Robin be angered by this? Sure, but he might also wonder why the PC is behaving that way. She could be angry over being lied to, or perhaps just overwhelmed by everything happening so quickly. Maybe the change in Robin’s attitude from “your good friend the bard” to “last heir and leader of a resistance” bothers the PC.
I could see a scene where the PC and Robin have a bicker session, resulting in them stomping off to their own corners. Orion could come and talk to Robin about it and perhaps offer some insight, after which Robin and the PC make up. It would be a small thing, but it could help Robin realize that, hey, the PC is pretty new to all this stuff and needs the only person they have left in their life – Robin – to be a friend as well as a leader.
I have to say, Wynele’s other suggestions are spot-on with what I’d like to see — as well as a bit of interaction in the gnome city, as suggested by Lady Naava.
There is one other little bit that is maybe trivial, and not really related to the above: I first took notice of Sanctum when the second chapter came out, in which it said that humans, elves, or half-elves were the recommended races. I installed the first chapter and decided to use an elf character. This brings absolutely no reaction from any of the elves, anywhere. For some reason I can’t adequately explain, this has been bothering me. I’m not sure if the only elves in your world are meant to be the ones from Elde (?), or if there are “forest dwelling elves” that are all but country bumpkins to the royals, but it’s maddening to have no explanation.
Or maybe it’s just me. That’s possible too. 😉
This is an interesting topic!
For the most part I really love the character, Robin (male version). He is intriguing, interesting, and at times exasperating romantic lead.
Does my PC feel like a passive sidekick? Yeah, sometimes. Some of the dialog seemed to reward you for.. Being sympathetic to Rob, and to agreeing with Robin’s and his concerns(such as his desire for vengeance), does not allow the PC to have much of a dissenting vote if she wants to gain influence and fulfill the romantic aspect of the campaign. There were times when I wanted to.. Ahem disagree with Robin but felt doing so would lower my influence score so instead I told Robin what he wanted to hear. Not really the actions of a friend or a person with a spine, but there you have it.
This was particularly obvious for me, in the vengeance dialogs. I am not a particularly vengeful person, and felt Robin needed be less vengeful and didn’t want to encourage vengeance. I am glad dissent is allowed in these dialogs but often I felt unsupportive of R for choosing them.
One of the things I liked about Gann MOTB, was that the most obvious (sympathetic) dialogs weren’t always the ones that scored with Gann. I remember if you felt sorry for him at one point, he threw it back in your face.
Does Robin want a relationship with a person who always agrees with him, treats him with kid gloves and never says anything irritating? Does he want a partner or a sidekick? Or does he want the type of gal who treats him like a friend and thinks for herself? Sometimes It feels Robin says he wants the latter but expects the former.
Regarding the dialog about the forced kiss scene… Robin is a bard and the reaction of the female robin (breaking the cad’s arm) seems more extreme than the shouting incident in the male version. As a bard I think Robin has probably had many admirers and probably is the master of putting people in their place without violence. If he/she has played taverns before (presumably maybe I’m wrong) he or she has been groped , harassed, heckled and otherwise treated with disrespect by the common folk and people who’ve had too much to drink. He has probably become to a degree adept, at dodging peoples hands and unwanted embraces. I would imagine he would be able to deal with the situation with a witty verbal riposte or a jest. The very fact that Robin had such an extreme reaction would probably make my pc wonder how ‘close to the edge’ he/she really is and was grateful for O’s warning.
In fem robins’ case an unwanted advance, a slap, a shove, or a rebuke would be in order for the cad. But arm breaking? He’d have to do something more serious. In male Robin’s case instead of shouting, he could’ve wiped his mouth and said something cutting, that would be embarrassing enough if overheard by the rest of the court to have the gal hiding out for days.
I think Wynele mentioned the only other dialog (the exasperated one toward the end) which seemed a little harsh.
In general though, I think it is pretty tough to write a mod with romantic elements not have the pc cow tow to the romancee a bit. Afterall, the romances are tailored to a wide variety of people and not all pcs are the same and it is difficult to portray the complexiites of a budding relationship with pixels and code.
Well, those are my (very long) thoughts.
Thanks,
Lady N
RC: thanks for your feedback, and I appreciate your candidness. I think that you raise some good points, although I do disagree with some others. As I put it in my blog post, I think you are right that an overemphasis on “making nice” with Robin and her issues “may not always be appropriate.” I am going to take that into account as I rework the dialogues for version 3.
With regard to the scene after the Soul-Drinker battle, though: I do think it’s a bit fantastic to suggest that “female Robin is acting like a fool, in a life or death situation, for no good reason.” She has an extremely good reason for her refusal (at first) to let the PC try to suck out the poison, and she tells you precisely what it is in the dialogue. You don’t know what getting that cursed venom in your mouth will do to you — so for all either of you knew, you were gambling with your life. And in fact, you were: if you persist in sucking out the poison, a script is run that generates a chance to either become poisoned yourself, or to worsen your condition if you already are poisoned. I even wrote the results of that check to the message window for the player to see — and partly to reinforce the fact that the risk behind Robin’s objection was both reasonable and real.
What Robin needs (and will respond well to) is a reasoned argument to agree to take that risk. That’s the kind of person she is: driven and with lots of issues, granted, but ruthlessly practical as well. She also does not take kindly to threats of force, and this aspect of her characterization is what the “[Practical] vs. [Violent]” choice that I presented in that scene is there to bring out. I gave the player the option to treat her with the respect of reasoning with her, or with the disrespect of belittling her objection and threatening her. You might want to choose the latter for RP reasons, but I don’t think you should expect to be able to do something like that with no risk of consequences for it.
Now having said that, it’s also clear to me that that entire exchange needs to be re-worked to include some more (and meaningful) RP options. I very much understand and agree with the desire of some players to have choices that display a little more “attitude” with Robin, and I’m definitely going to keep that in mind as I continue work on version 3.
I guess for me it was just RP. My PC Lost his family. Then lost his adopted father. Then finds out that the reason he lost his real family is because the demons were looking for his adopted family. Now the woman he loves, the only person he has left in the world, is dying and won’t let him do the only thing he can think of to help her. He got a tad upset, I guess.
Thanks to everyone for the extensive comments! I really appreciate them. My work and modding schedules are going to be a little hectic for the next few days, but I’ll definitely respond with some more thoughts when I can. Thanks again!
I just realized I had forgotten to add a note about other conversations that should be revisited. The one that sticks out most prominently in my mind is the dialogue with the beast king where he calls Robin a “soft elf-boy.”
While I can see a female Robin possibly being upset over being called soft, would a male Robin feel the same way? For the matter, would the beast king even call a male Robin soft, when my female PC is definitely the more fragile-looking of the two? I would expect Robin to be pretty fit and road-hardened with all his traveling — quite unlike my PC, who would have led a relatively sedentary life for the past three years. A bit of tweaking there might be a good idea. 🙂
Uire, thanks for your comment (and I will come back to answer some of the others here in more detail soon!). About Robin’s response to the Beastman King’s comment about being "soft" — yes, that’s something that both Robins (male and female) would be sensitive to. The reason has to do with his background. Robin didn’t start to develop his combat and adventuring skills until after the Warlord’s coup. Part of him feels guilty for having lived the "frivolous life" of a bard during his youth, instead of "being more responsible" and developing those skills earlier.
If you remember the picnic, he says of the scene where Stefanie died: "I’d spent my life learning music and poetry, not combat. I had no way to protect her, and we both knew it." There’s a small, implied confession there: that in part, he blames himself for her death. Ever since, Robin has felt driven to "live down" his "pretty-boy" youth by becoming a powerful and capable adventurer. Although he’s succeeded, this is still a sore spot with him. And all of these issues apply equally to the female Robin as well.
I do agree that I should probably try to come up with a more convicing pretext for the Beastman King’s "soft-elf-boy" remark. Partly, that’s just the King’s manner: any human or elf is going to appear soft to him by comparison. So perhaps I should just have him call you both soft to cover all the bases. 🙂
Oh, another thing which would be interesting to hear about would be Robin’s siblings and his family. We know they are dead, but it might be interesting to hear about.
N
I’ve been working on a partly-finished response to LadyNaava’s comments for a while now, and I think it’s way past time when I posted what I’ve written so far. 🙂 I’ll comment on the rest when I have time.
*NOTE: SPOILER WARNING*
LadyN wrote: “Does my PC feel like a passive sidekick? Yeah, sometimes. Some of the dialog seemed to reward you for… Being sympathetic to Rob, and to agreeing with Robin’s and his concerns… does not allow the PC to have much of a dissenting vote if she wants to gain influence and fulfill the romantic aspect of the campaign. There were times when I wanted to.. Ahem disagree with Robin but felt doing so would lower my influence score so instead I told Robin what he wanted to hear…”
Actually, if you think about it, most of the time I do allow that. For example, consider the scenes just before and during the conversation with the Beastman King. You can explicitly tell Robin to follow your lead, and tell the Beastman King the truth even when Robin warns against it. Robin gives in to all of that, with nothing more than a frown and (non-hostile) comment about your obstinacy. Then there’s your insistence on sucking out the poison (again, Robin gives in to you), the bridge gate near the hatchery (Robin and Orion defer to your leadership), the post-Drow conversation (telling Robin not to be over-protective of you, the way Len was), the encounter at the Destroyer statue, and so on. All of this is intended to dramatize the fact that you are largely becoming the de facto leader of the team, and that Robin is coming to regard you at least as his equal and partner in adventure.
What I suspect that you and several other players are really thinking of, though — as some of your comments suggest, and please tell me if I’m right about this — is a specific issue that I insisted on making Robin rather hard-nosed about. That’s the “Vengeance Thing.”
LadyN: “This was particularly obvious for me, in the vengeance dialogs. I am not a particularly vengeful person, and felt Robin needed be less vengeful and didn’t want to encourage vengeance. I am glad dissent is allowed in these dialogs but often I felt unsupportive of R for choosing them.”
Robin’s drive to defeat the Warlord and to avenge his love and his family – and the extent to which these “issues” hamper pursuing a romance with him – can of course be a key source of conflict with the player. I also think you’re right that while I allowed for it, I didn’t make the dialogues very supportive of someone who wanted to strongly discourage Robin’s quest for vengeance. In part, that’s because they won’t succeed, and I wanted the dialogues to recognize that and be true to Robin’s personality. He will eventually learn to put his drive for vengeance into perspective and to let other feelings into his heart (that is, the romance with him is not doomed). But he won’t ever actually give up that quest for vengeance, and a player who wants to pursue a romance with him will need to understand and respect that.
Also, Robin also isn’t the only romance option available. Indeed, this is one of the differences between Robin’s personality on the one hand, and Orion’s and Diana’s on the other. They’ve both also given their lives to defeating the Warlord, but neither is consumed by vengeance in the way that Robin is. Part of their purpose in the modules is to provide a viable romance option for players who have issues with some of Robin’s more “complicated” traits, such as his obsession with vengeance.
As it’s currently written, the romance with Robin can withstand some opposition regarding his pursuit of vengeance, and the v3.0 update provides more leeway on this (including some additional chances to improve your relationship score). But expressing such opposition too consistently and stridently would (I think understandably) alienate him, and make the romance difficult to pursue. I don’t see Robin falling in love with someone who consistently expressed a lack of empathy for him and his motivations. At least some supportiveness on this, it seems to me, would be a prerequisite for touching his heart.
LadyN: “One of the things I liked about Gann MOTB, was that the most obvious (sympathetic) dialogs weren’t always the ones that scored with Gann. I remember if you felt sorry for him at one point, he threw it back in your face.”
That’s true, but be careful about generalizing too much from that. At least at first (I haven’t finished MOTB yet), Gann comes across as a “player,” and part of the reason why he responds positively when you challenge him seems to be because he’s impressed that you haven’t let him play you. Robin, on the other hand, is a straight-shooter, even if he is very conflicted. Nevertheless, you do make a good point, and there are a number of ways that I could probably make the dialogs with him more “challenging.” I’m definitely thinking about how to do that for the upcoming chapters — but that’s a technique that I’m going to have to work at for a while to “get my voice” with it, so to speak.
That’s all for now — I’ll comment on the rest later when I have some more time to write more. 🙂